Punch
von Oliver Fritsch
Löw darf morgen also nicht auf die Bank, nicht in die Kabine und keinen Kontakt zu seiner Mannschaft und seinen Mitarbeitern halten, auch nicht über einen Mittelsmann. Ein hartes, unverständliches Urteil, das auch schwach begründet ist. Argumente brauchen Fußballfunktionäre offenbar nicht. Mal unabhängig davon, ob das nicht auch ein Vorteil sein kann (nach dem mourinhoesken Motto: Der Rest der Welt/Europas ist gegen uns) – hier ein Hinweis darauf, wer auf der anderen Bank Platz nehmen wird:
Ist noch kein Jahr her (hier die Meldung auf eurosport.de), vier Spiele Sperre erhielt Scolari. Doch bevor die Diskussion in die falsche Richtung geht – Bastian Schweinsteiger ist für seine Rote Karte und sein Vogelzeigen mit seiner Sperre von nur einem Spiel sehr gut weggekommen. Weniger gibt es auch nicht für eine Gelb-Rote Karte, und der türkische Keeper Woll-Kahn (oder so) ist für ein ähnliches Vergehen, als er in der Nachspielzeit Jan Koller umschubste, zwei Spiele gesperrt worden.
Was ist davon zu halten, Max Diderot?
Fipps schrieb am 18. Juni 2008:
Vielleicht entwickelt es sich ja auch zum Vorteil, das Jogi sich mit Seidenschal auf die Schampustribüne setzen muss. Jetzt könnte mal wieder Fußball gespielt, anstatt Wissenschaft betrieben werden.
Max Diderot schrieb am 18. Juni 2008:
Okay, es ist in Ordnung, diese Strafe gegen Joachim Löw zu verhängen. Witzig ist ja auch der Umstand, dass der Bundestrainer kurz nach der verbalen Disziplinierung Schweinsteigers, es scheinbar selbst an der betreffenden Ausgeglichenheit mangeln ließ. Fehlende Stressresistenz?
Seien wir doch ehrlich, vermutlich weiß nur die Kanzlerin (etwa so, „Joachim, was haben Sie denn Furchtbares angestellt?“), was vorgefallen ist. Und nicht erst seit Helmut Kohl, wissen wir, dass den deutschen Regierungschefs liebstes Kind der Sport und die Parteifinanzen sind. Ergo nehmen sie entsprechende Geheimnisse lieber mit ins Grab, als dass sie mit einer polemischen Replik, hier gegen den spanischen Schiedsrichter und den slowenischen 4.Mann (die ja zudem aktuell die Ratspräsidentschaft in der EU inne haben), für internationale Verwicklungen sorgen.
Aus diversen Meldungen ist aber zu entnehmen, dass etwas mehr als nur die Anmahnung der eigenen Interessenswahrnehmung der Trainer vorgefallen sein muss. Da ich ebenfalls davon ausgehe, dass analog der Sportgerichtsbarkeit des DFB auch die internationalen Instanzen mit Juristen besetzt sind, und das Motto „In dubio pro reo – Im Zweifel für den An- oder Beklagten“ nicht nur auf den hiesigen Rechtsraum beschränkt ist, darf das UEFA-Gremium diesbezüglich nicht fahrlässig handeln.
Als bedauerlich empfinde ich die mangelnde Transparenz bei diesen Verfahren des europäischen Fußballverbandes. Nicht nur sportliche auch wirtschaftliche Auswirkungen können solche Sperren nach sich ziehen. Daher – mehr Offenheit wagen, die Urteile exakter begründen, und nicht auch noch hier als Trias im Putinschen Sinne (Legilative, Judikative und Exekutive in möglichst identischen Händen)agieren.
Jörg schrieb am 18. Juni 2008:
Wenn ich es recht verstanden habe, folgt eine Sperre von einem Spiel normalerweise automatisch dem Verweis auf die Tribüne. Das heißt, es hätte dem Schiedsrichter ein Fehlurteil nachgewiesen werden müssen. So gesehen war ein Verzicht auf eine Sperre, also quasi die Aufhebung des Schiedsrichterurteils, nicht gerade wahrscheinlich – zumindest, wenn man voraussetzt, dass der Schiedsrichter es nicht „einfach so“ getan hat.
Als bedauerlich empfinde ich, dass nach dem Spiel so viele Leute sagen, der Schiedsrichter (wahlweise der „4. Mann“) wolle sich nur wichtig machen – ohne doch genauere Kenntnis der Umstände zu haben.
12. Mann schrieb am 18. Juni 2008:
Ich fand schon die Reaktion des Schiedsrichters im Spiel überzogen. Ein souveränerer Schiedsrichter hätte da einfach mal ein paar beruhigende Worte in Verbindung mit einer Ermahnung gesprochen. Dass die UEFA die automatische Sperre von einem Spiel dann nicht aufhebt, war wohl zu erwarten gewesen. Schließlich will man die Autorität der Schiedsrichter nicht angreifen. Auch wenn ich von der UEFA ein wenig mehr Fingerspitzengefühl erwartet hätte.
Lustig fand ich den Satz in der Urteilsbegründung, dass die beiden Trainer sich sehr nervös verhalten hätten. Bei der UEFA ist nervosität also jetzt schon strafbar.
nedfuller schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Jörg hat recht.
Die UEFA konnte garnicht anders.
Schade aber nicht entscheidend für heute abend.
Da Jogi eh nicht wechselt, wenn es notwendig ist, kann der Hansi mal zeigen was in ihm steckt.
Komischerweise bin ich für heute abend sehr optimistisch gestimmt. Warum weiss ich nicht.
Hexenkessel schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Was heißt konnte nicht anders? Der einzige Grund für die Sperre der UEFA – das ist ja hier auch angeklungen – ist die Entscheidung des Schiedsrichters, die die Grundlage für das Verfahren bildet. Und dass die UEFA einem ihrer Schiedsrichter in den Rücken gefallen ist, habe ich persönlich noch nie erlebt. Da wird eben lieber eine schwache bis falsche Entscheidung des Schiris gedeckt, anstatt mal so ein Urteil in zweiter Instanz zu kassieren. Das wäre für die UEFA aber ein Eingeständnis der Fehlbarkeit der Schiedsrichter und würde einige Dämme brechen. Stichworte sind „Tatsachenentscheidung“, „Videobeweis“, „elektronische Hilfsmittel“ usw. Das würde auch der FIFA nicht gefallen, rate ich einfach mal ins Blaue hinein. Die Allmacht der Funktionäre darf eben nicht durch so eine Lappalie beeinträchtigt werden.
Mich erinnert das Ganze fatal an den Fall Frings vor dem Italien-Spiel. Auch damals wurden aus fadenscheinigen Gründen Rechtsgrundsätze ausgehebelt, indem Frings nach einem erfolgten Freispruch erneut vor den Fußball-Kadi musste. Insofern bin ich hier mal ganz bei Günter Netzer, den diese Entscheidungen „in Rage“ versetzen. Auch in dem Punkt, dass dies natürlich keine Ausrede für ein schwaches Spiel sein darf. Es ist ja nun beileibe nicht D’land allein, dass von derartigen Entscheidungen betroffen ist – keine Verschwörungstheorien bitte. Vielmehr offenbart sich hier ein grundsätzliches Problem des Fußballs, dass man euphemistisch als „Beamtenwillkür“ bezeichnen könnte.
Oliver Fritsch schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Wisst Ihr, wer heute Vierter Mann ist? Mejuto Gonzalez
Max schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
@Hexekessel: Ich gebe Ihnen vollständig Recht. Es ist nunmal so (und das gilt nicht nur für den Fußball), dass in solchen Verbänden in erster Linie Wichtigtuer und Sesselfurzer rumhängen, die sich ab und zu mal wichtig machen und die Muskeln spielen lassen müssen.
Und bei wichtigen Entscheidungen wie zum Beispiel dem Ausschluss des FC Porto aus der Champions League, ziehen sie dann regelmäßig den Schwanz ein.
Ist beim DFB so, bei der UEFA und bei der FIFA.
Max Diderot schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Es ist wie bei allen internationalen Organisationen oftmals ein schmaler Grat von Verständnis und Unverständnis, der bestimmte Entscheidungen aus nationaler Sichtweise nicht erklärbar erscheinen lässt. Fakt ist aber, dass der DFB als teilnehmender Verband der EM 08, die UEFA-Statuten, aktuell vermutlich in der Fassung Juni 2007, anerkennt.
Im Sport ist eine mittelbare Gerichtsbarkeit auch nur bedingt vorstellbar, da hier das Prinzip direkten Sanktion greifen soll. Und dass das „Unfehlbarkeitsprinzip“ der Schiedsrichter propagiert wird, halte ich auch für korrekt, solange sich nicht die administrative und ausführende Instanz der UEFA (hier das sogenannte Exekutivkomitee mit 14 Mitgliedern) für Ergänzungen ausspricht.
Man kann ja von einzelnen UEFA-Vertretern (u.a. Gerhard Mayer-Vorfelder als einer von vier Vizepräsidenten) nicht die allerbeste Meinung haben; nur, sie pauschal deshalb zu verdammen, halte ich für ungerechtfertigt. Und das Beispiel des FC Porto taugt ja eher, zumindest nach meinem Verständnis, dafür, dass die Rechtsinstanzen der UEFA funktionieren. Dem portugiesischen Klub wurde die Zulassung zur CL 2008/09 durch den Berufungssenat (quasi die nachfolgende Instanz des Disziplinarausschusses) erteilt.
brandy schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Ehrlich gesagt: Wie im richtigen Leben interessieren mich persönlich auch in diesem Verfahren die formaljuristischen Aspekte („musste laut Statuten ja so gehandhabt werden“)recht wenig. Ich frage mich einfach, was für eine Fußballkultur da hergestellt werden soll, wenn Trainer am Spielfeldrand nicht mal ein bisschen HB-Männchen spielen dürfen, solange sie wohlgemerkt nicht handgreiflich werden. Ironische Verkehrung, dass der Herr Löw da oben in der Loge mit seinem casual outfit zwischen der Politprominenz den formvollendet-lässigen Eindruck eines Top-Models erweckt hat, diesen Platz da oben nur angewiesen bekam, weil ihm gegenüber dem vierten Mann vermutlich ein proletarischer Kraftausdruck zu viel über die Lippen gekommen ist.
Doerk schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Mal schauen, ob das wirklich eine Schwächung ist. Letztlich wird das Spiel auf dem Platz entschieden. Die Entscheidungen von Löw während des Spiels waren ja auch diskussionswürdig, z.B. Einwechslung von Odonkor.
Ich habe mich sehr gewundert, dass Löw sich am 4. Mann abarbeitet, ist eigentlich gar nicht sein Stil. Mir scheint, dass hier sich doch ein erheblicher Druck entladen hat. Löw hat im Turnier insgesamt einiges an Souveränität eingebüßt.
Dass die UEFA eine Standardsperre verhängt ist nicht erstaunlich: Nach einer roten oder gelb-roten Karte wird ja auch nicht diskutiert, ob eine Sperre gerechtfertigt ist, sondern es gibt automatisch mindestens 1 Spiel.
Oliver Fritsch schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Die deutsche Presse kritisiert das Urteil sehr scharf:
http://www.indirekter-freistoss.de/home/deutscheelf-190608.html
brandy schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Den Kommentar von Ralf Köttker/Welt trifft es für mich genau. Auch wenn ich solche Geschichten sehe wie: Ein Stürmer haut nach dem Pfiff des Schiedsrichters den Ball ins Tor, was ihm überhaut nichts bringt, weil sein Team sowieso hinten liegt, er also keinerlei Interesse an Zeitspiel haben kann. Dafür MUSS er aber laut Regelbuch die gelbe Karte sehen. Und der Schiedsrichter gibt sie ihm auch, weil ihm sonst auf dem Uefa-Bewertungsbogen ein Zehntel von seiner B-Note abgezogen würde. Irgendwie überreguliert und weltfremd.
lateral schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Schwach war der Schiedsrichter. Aber dafür jetzt gleich die UEFA zu verdammen, geht aus den von Max Diderot aufgeführten Gründen eindeutig zu weit. Scolari hat sich übrigens für Löw ausgesprochen, hat gar Bedenken wegen der zusätzlichen Motivation, die die deutschen Spieler aus der Situation ziehen würden. Die Portugiesen haben sich während Scolaris Sperre schließlich auch besonders ins Zeug gelegt. Also, laufen Schweini!
In Portugal glauben nach einer Umfrage der Fußballtageszeitung „Record“ 82% der Abstimmenden an einen Sieg der Portugiesen. In Deutschland glauben angeblich weniger als 50% an ein eigenes Weiterkommen. Selbstvertrauen sieht portugiesisch aus.
Tom schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Das eigentliche Problem: Vom Spiel werden wir heute nicht viel zu sehen bekommen, da die Kameras ständig Löw auf der Tribüne zeigen werden. Glücklicherweise ist das Merkel nicht anwesend, sonst wäre es noch weniger.
Knipser77 schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Angesichts des notorischen Deutschenhassers Platini an der UEFA-Spitze wundert mich dieses Urteil keineswegs.
hexenkessel schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Wer allerdings heute die neuerliche Stellungnahme der UEFA gehört hat, bekam noch einmal bestätigt, dass es darum ging, die Entscheidung des Schiedsrichters nachträglich zu untermauern. „Der Schiedsrichter hat sich korrekt verhalten“, sagte ein UEFA-Offizieller weiter und sagte weiter, dass auf Grund der richtigen Schiedsrichterentscheidung dieses Urteil gefällt wurde. Und damit beruht der UEFA-Spruch eben auf einer falschen Schirientscheidung. Ich bleibe also bei meiner Einschätzung.
Barton Fink schrieb am 19. Juni 2008:
Laut der UEFA-Seite wird der vierte Mann heute nicht Mejuto Gonzalez sein, sondern ein Grieche: Kyros Vassaras.
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/matches/match=301699/index.html
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